Billy Morrison. He has always been surrounded by other people’s stories. As Billy Idol’s longtime rhythm guitarist and a close friend and collaborator of Ozzy Osbourne, Morrison has spent decades working alongside some of rock’s most influential artists. And that is something special. But Morrison’s own story extends well beyond that. A songwriter, producer, artist, all-around musician who plays lead guitar just as powerfully as he does rhythm and who can sing raw, stripped-down vocals that are just as compelling as his “angry boy, frustrated punk man.”
While Hollow draws from some of the most difficult parts of Morrison’s past, he also uses it to understand not only those experiences, but what comes next. Songs like “Forgive Me,” “Butterfly Effect” and “Take Me As I Am” explore accountability, consequence and acceptance, while collaborations with Marilyn Mason, Dexter Holland and Duff McKagan expand Hollow’s sound without pulling focus from Morrison himself. For all its introspection, however, the record has plenty of room for the unexpected and beautifully fun. Hollow is a record that is deeply personal, but never entirely confined to the past.
mxdwn: Hi, my name is Eve Pierpont, and I’m the editor for mxdwn’s music feature section. I’m here today with Billy Morrison. Hi, Billy.
Billy Morrison: Hi, how are you?
mxdwn: Good, how are you?
BM: Good, I’m good. Just waking up here.
mxdwn: Same. So, you’ve been playing rhythm guitar for Billy Idol for almost two decades now while also maintaining a really distinct solo career. How do those two worlds feed into each other creatively?
BM: They actually don’t. They are completely separate. When I am onstage with Billy, I’m there to serve Billy Idol. The name on the marquee says Billy Idol. Steve Stevens is also getting inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame with Billy. So when I’m in that mode, I am there to serve those songs. I mean, amazing songs to be serving, you know, “Rebel Yell,” “White Wedding,” “Eyes Without a Face.” The list is endless. And I’m there to do whatever Steve and Billy need me to do. When I make my solo music, it’s the exact opposite. There are no managers or agents, no bandmates, and I am completely serving myself when I am writing. I mean, if you look at my album, there’s a hip-hop song, a country song, a punk song, and a metal song all next to each other.
mxdwn: I know.
BM: You can only do that if you’re really not thinking about anyone else.
mxdwn: That’s true. And may I add, you put all those genres, songs next to each other very well.
BM: Thank you.
mxdwn: It was very impressive to listen to that.
BM: Well, there is a trick. I’ve heard this a lot, that there’s an authenticity and a consistency to the records, and the reason is, it is exactly the answer to the previous question, is because it’s just me. If you were trying to do that with a bunch of other guys, there would be an argument where the piano ballad should be last or in the middle or the punk or so, because it’s just me, I can serve my record to the best of my abilities, and apparently my abilities are good enough to put those genres together in a way that makes sense.
mxdwn: Yes, they are.
BM: Thank you.
mxdwn: Yeah. It was incredible to hear. So, what was it like to reflect upon the period of your life that the title track “Hollow” was inspired by? And how do you handle translating heavy, vulnerable memories into explosive rock songs?
BM: Yeah, what a great question. What a really eloquent way of putting it. I’ve been asked that before, but the way you phrase that is, it wasn’t easy.
mxdwn: Yeah.
BM: The song Hollow, the title song of the album, is autobiographical. And it’s no secret that I spent time being homeless and drug addicted. But that kind of, these days, falls into a category of, oh, he was homeless and drug addicted. What people aren’t actually grasping is that I experienced, and not just for one day, but for well over a couple of years, people stepping over me to get away from me, to cross the street from me. I was begging for change out there, begging for quarters, and when I managed to engage someone, the look of disdain and judgment and disgust is very real, and that lives with you and stays with you, even though it’s been 31 years since it was like that for me. So writing a song, if you wanna be honest and authentic about the song, I have to go back and relive that shit and talk about how it feels, you know, and [if you] read the lyrics to that song, I did that quite successfully. It’s not the easiest thing to do. But translating it into a great rock song is very cathartic, and so I guess the payoff is worth it. Does that make sense?
mxdwn: Totally.
BM: The creative payoff. I tell you one thing is, I’ve been struggling with the trauma and depression from that life, even though I don’t live that life anymore, for decades. The creative payoff of getting as honest as I can perhaps means I can move forward properly and not feel the need to write another song like that.
mxdwn: Yeah. That’s – well, I got chills, first of all, when you were speaking, because that was just very real. I mean, the best music comes from, I think, a very vulnerable place.
BM: Sometimes.
mxdwn: Yeah, that’s true.
BM: Sometimes it’s just great to just write something fun.
mxdwn: That is true.
BM: But all of my feels comes from people like, I mean, Liam Gallagher knows how to write, or Noel Gallagher knows how to write some feels, so did David Bowie. So I get what you’re saying. And I’m just honored that I can touch anyone like that.
mxdwn: Yeah. No, I mean, the way that you talk about it, I can only imagine. I’m sure you’re still dealing with stuff from that time period. I mean, as any human would be. So, you know, to be able to do what you do and hopefully have that cathartic release and, you know, somehow [have it] help you cope with it.
BM: As an artist, the cathartic release comes when people like yourself respond in a positive manner to the creativity, not necessarily the song. You don’t have to like hard rock music. But if someone like yourself takes the time, there’s a lot of journalism that doesn’t take any time or anything beyond the surface, so the cathartic release comes from knowing that some people, clearly yourself, have taken the time to try and understand what it is I’m trying to say, and the experience behind it, so thank you.
mxdwn: No, thank you. I do definitely try to do that because I just feel like it’s the right thing to do. But I agree, there is a lot of journalism and journalists who don’t, and I feel like you shouldn’t be doing this if that’s all you’re gonna do, is scratch the surface. I mean, I don’t know if I should say that, but it is what it is.
BM: That’s okay. The winners in life are the ones that actually say it.
mxdwn: Yeah. Okay. Well, thank you.
BM: You and me both are.
mxdwn: Yeah, exactly. Half of Hollow features your own lead vocals while the other half brings in guest singers. How do you decide which songs need your own voice to tell a story versus when to hand them over to someone else?
BM: Well, 90% of the time, by the time the music is finished, it’s clear. And then the other 10% of the time is being forced into doing something I’m uncomfortable with because I can’t get the guy that I want to sing the song. Okay. I’ll give you an example of that. Most of those songs on this album were extremely clear. Look, I’ve said it before, if I worked in a bank, I could probably introduce you to the CEO of Chase Manhattan or get you a cheap mortgage. I don’t work in a bank. I work in rock and roll, so my Rolodex has certain people in it that I’ve known for decades. It’s just how it is. And so I’m not actively searching for a famous person. What I’m doing is writing a song that clearly is a Marilyn Manson vibe, and so I will text Manson and ask him to sing on it. It’s that simple. You know, we wrote “Never Gonna Change,” and Dexter Holland is a beautiful soul, a wonderful person, a killer vocalist, and he’s in my Rolodex; he’s one of only three or four people that could have sung that song. I’m lucky enough to be able to contact him and ask him. The rest, most of the time, as I’m writing the music, I can hear a lyric and a melody in my head, so, okay, I’m gonna sing this one. And then that last 10%, maybe sometimes- I’m not gonna name which song- but sometimes you have an idea for a singer that doesn’t pan out for whatever reason. I can’t reach him. I don’t know him. The manager won’t let me get to him, whatever it is. And now I’ve got a really cool piece of music that doesn’t have a singer, and my producer, Barry Pointer, says, well, you could sing this. Okay, I guess I’ll give it… And I find myself singing a song that perhaps I was not ready to sing, you know? The one exception to the rule on this album is the last song. It’s called “Butterfly Effect.” And it was written from start to finish for me, for my vocal, and for my vocal that I’ve never done before. I wanted to push myself vocally somewhere that wasn’t just angry boy, frustrated punk man. I can do that really well. I wanted to actually, you know, in the shower, I know I can sing, so that track was an attempt to do that.
mxdwn: Yeah, and you did it very well. Let me just say that you should do more songs like that.
BM: Thank you, very nervous.
mxdwn: No, I was blown away. I was like, oh, wow. Okay.
BM: Thank you.
mxdwn: I love that. I love that song.
BM: Well, you know, when I am known for, look, I’m covered in tattoos and I, even in Billy’s band, I’m the angry punk guy over on stage left, you know? I’m known for that, and that’s where I come from. The Sex Pistols changed my life. However, so did David Bowie. You know what I mean? So did some of those amazing singers. So why not?
mxdwn: Yeah. Why not? Well, I’m glad you said why not, and you can do it. That was beautiful.
BM: Thank you.
mxdwn: So this kind of feeds into what you were saying, but the guest list on Hollow is massive. When you’re writing music, are you writing with specific artists in mind? Or do you think after the fact, so-and-so would be perfect for this? Which I know you kind of answered already.
BM: Oh yeah, but it’s a good follow-up. It’s 50-50. You know, I knew I was gonna be working with Sully on something else. It was on a gig that he was gonna do here. So I knew that, and I’m also a huge Godsmack fan. So that song, to be honest, the riff came from Brett Scallions, who was the singer of Fuel, good friend of mine. He had a little riff, and I loved it. So I built the song around that riff, and from, really, the word go, I was writing that to play to Sully, because I knew I could, and who I kinda knew was gonna go yes. Same with the Manson song. I mean, I’m a huge Marilyn Manson fan. Sonically, he’s produced incredible music over the last, three, four, three decades. So that song as well, I was working with Gary Newman’s producer, Ade Fenton, and we had discussed that I could, if the song was good enough, send it to Manson, and he may say yes. And then there’s other songs, you know, “Never Gonna Change.” I wasn’t writing that for Dexter. I was writing it because I wanted to do a three-minute pop-punk, you know, who doesn’t like a bit of Blink-182 or a summer, turn it up, the sun’s shining kinda rock and roll.
mxdwn: That’s exactly what it is.
BM: And so that song really, it wasn’t until it was finished and I went, oh. I’d just done a gig with Dexter. He had gotten up and sung a few songs, and it’s all about timing, and also I try and make it as organic as possible. Chuck D from Public Enemy is on that record because he’s friends with B-Real, and I’m friends with B, and I’m a huge hip-hop fan, so I write a hip-hop track. Of course, the first person I call is B-Real, and he’s like, hey, Chuck D would sound good on this. I’m like, yeah, let’s get Chuck. So organic is very important to me.
mxdwn: Yeah. Well, that’s good. I think organic should be important in any kind of music and, you can tell when it’s forced and when it’s organic, and when it’s forced, it’s just not as good.
BM: We can all see right through it.
mxdwn: Yeah, exactly.
BM: And the last thing I can be accused of is that. I wear my heart on my sleeve and, you know, I live and die by my choices on my records. It’s definitely not forced.
mxdwn: No, it’s not, and that’s good. “No Suspects” features Chuck D, B-Real and DMC, and it can be tricky to blend rap or hip-hop with rock, but you do it seamlessly. What drew you to blending those genres?
BM: To me, it’s really simple. Hip-hop is just punk rock. Punk was never a haircut or a sound. It was an attitude. It was a way of living. Well, in the late ’80s, early ’90s, When N.W.A. came out, they were just another bunch of disenfranchised youths screaming about police: You need to listen to us because we have something to say. What is more punk rock than that?
mxdwn: So true.
BM: My whole life, I have looked at punk rock and hip-hop as exactly the same thing. And of course, you know, Run-D.M.C., Aerosmith, very famous collaboration. But there’s way more than that. Check out the “Judgment Night” soundtrack. You know, there are many collaborations that prove hip-hop and rock and roll go together. Like peanut butter and jelly.
mxdwn: Yeah. No, that’s true. The intro, like the beat intro, to that song and what it goes into has become one of my favorite of all. I love that. I describe it as creepy almost, because I don’t have a better word for it.
BM: Oh, I get it. Creepy.
mxdwn: You know what I mean? It’s so Halloween, Halloween-ish or whatever, but, like, it hits so well into the rock part. I’m in love with that intro.
BM: It’s “Here Comes the Monster.”
mxdwn: Yeah.
BM: “Here Comes the Monster.” You know, don’t open the door. Don’t open the door. You open the door.
mxdwn: Yes.
BM: It’s classic “Scream,” you know? So, yeah, behind hip-hop is a lot of anger, and behind rock and roll can be a lot of anger. You know? I would have trouble mixing punk rock and R&B. I don’t think I could do that anyway. But, you know, hip-hop and punk and hip-hop and rock, they go together, you know? So, I’m glad you responded to that song. For me, it’s three hip-hop, three hip-hop legends on one song.
mxdwn: I know. And that’s crazy.
BM: I produced that. It’s crazy.
mxdwn: Yeah. You should be proud. It’s incredible. It really is.
BM: It’s fun. Listen, if it wasn’t fun, I wouldn’t do it. And sitting in a late night studio with B-Real on the mic, it’s an experience, man.
mxdwn: I’m sure.
BM: Listen, I’m sober, okay? But the place is full of weed smoke, and I’m sitting on the couch. I’m probably contact high. I’m like, am I really doing this with B-Real?
mxdwn: Yeah. Is this real life?
BM: It’s crazy. It’s so much fun.
mxdwn: Oh, I’m sure. I love that. If anything proves that hip-hop and punk rock go together, it’s that song, truly.
BM: Thank you.
mxdwn: Can you share with me the inspiration behind “Forgive Me”?
BM: Oh, man. Okay. So I must have done 30 interviews. You’re the only person that’s actually asked that, and I’m not sure I can answer it to the degree that I’ve answered your other questions. Let me attempt it. “Forgive Me” is another super personal song. Alright. Let me put it this way. I’m a very fallible human being, and I make mistakes. I truly believe if you’d have known me. Let me see. I’m 31 years sober. So if you’d have known me 32 years ago, you wouldn’t have liked me, and I would probably be trying to rob you, okay? I don’t do that anymore, which proves to me that some degree of change is possible in this journey that we’re all on, this life journey. Now, it doesn’t mean that I have changed and I’m done changing. I am not perfect. I’m really fallible. I make ridiculously stupid mistakes, probably on a daily basis. I can be rude to people. you know, I can be dishonest. Every human being can. What I’m trying to do on a daily basis is be a better person than I was yesterday.
mxdwn: That’s all that matters.
BM: That’s the broad strokes behind that song, “Forgive Me”.
mxdwn: Yeah.
BM: It says, “Forgive me, I’m broken.”
mxdwn: Yeah.
BM: That’s the chorus.
mxdwn: I know. I really like the song, and the lyrics, so I wanted to ask. I mean, all you can do is try to be a better person every day.
BM: What other choice — what I do know is that any other solution is very drastic, and no matter what I’m feeling, if I can try and articulate it in some way and ask for help, maybe, or write a song, or just not make another stupid decision, things may get a little better. And I know the whole world lives like that.
mxdwn: Yeah, for sure. I mean, you said any other thing would be drastic, I feel like it’s all about baby steps. If you try to push yourself too hard into something, it’s not gonna happen. You have to gradually do what you feel comfortable with doing.
BM: And make restitution and amends when you realize that you’ve been an idiot.
mxdwn: Yeah.
BM: That’s really what the song is about, is trying to own up to these choices and decisions that we all make.
mxdwn: Yeah, it’s big.
BM: Own up. Yeah. It is what it is.
mxdwn: Yeah, it’s big. The song “The Tailor” has the powerful lyrics, “We wear our pain like we wear our clothes/ The more that it fits, the less that it shows.” What do those words mean to you?
BM: Oh, man, that’s so — they obviously came from Manson. He writes his own lyrics, but what I can tell you is that we worked together on that song. We were in the studio for a week or so together every day, and that wasn’t gonna be the chorus. He was just reading out some lyrics and I went, whoa. Stop. Read that again. We wear our pain like we wear our clothes, the more that it fits, the less that it shows. What it means is we try and hide our pain, you know? The closer we can get that pain to fit us like a tailored suit, the less the outside world will know how much pain we’re actually in. And I know everyone can relate to that, but Manson was just reading out his lyrics, I’m like, no. That’s the chorus. And you can’t make Manson do anything he doesn’t wanna do. He’s very focused in what he wants to do. He came back the next day, and he’d rewritten the lyrics, and he’d gone, you’re right. That’s the chorus. That’s the chorus. That’s the hook of this song. So yeah, it’s about appearances. I guess if you wanna go deep, it’s about looking on Instagram at all the people that put filters on their faces. They don’t look like that, they’re masking their pain by trying to appear something that they’re not. So listen, he hit that out of the park, that lyric. Oh my God.
mxdwn: I know. I went back and listened and I was like, whoa, wait a second. I gotta go back and listen to that again. I was like, that’s amazing. I have to ask a question about that.
BM: The guy’s really clever.
mxdwn: Yeah. Very. Was “Take Me As I Am” intentionally placed on the record as a sort of emotional grounding point? Because that’s kind of how it felt to me.
BM: Well, obviously, because I’m laughing, no. But now you’ve said it, moving forward, I’m gonna steal that. I’m gonna tell people that, yes, absolutely was an intentional. So the day the album is released, which is August 7th, that is the big single we have. I’m just finishing a video for it, which is, I mean, I used the term the other day, it’s a cinematic masterpiece. It’s crazy. My photographer, Jane Stewart, she has an insane creative vision, and I asked her to direct, and she’s first time directing this, and I mean, there’s a Lamborghini, I’ve got a black eye, there’s showgirls with feathered boas. There’s drone shots over the city of Los Angeles. It is a cinematic masterpiece. It is absolutely an unintentional emotional grounding point. Yeah. Because what I’m saying, it’s basically halfway through the record, I think, I’m saying, look. Take me for all my faults, it can all be okay. If we just take each other as we are, and I accept you, it’s a song of acceptance. I accept you, warts and all. Take me, warts and all, and we can walk through this life. We can get through this life. And God forbid, with a smile or two, you know? I’m urging, I guess, the whole world to just take a beat, take a breath, find some acceptance.
mxdwn: Yeah.
BM: That’s great. I’m stealing that.
mxdwn: That’s fine. Go for it. Oh, that’s so funny.
BM: That’s going to radio. We all felt, the record label and myself, felt that that is a song that is attainable and understandable from many sections of the rock and roll community. There’s some Stone Temple Pilots in it. There’s some Oasis in it, it’s got a bit of everything. So yeah, we’re going to radio with that one. It’s a big song.
mxdwn: Yeah. It is. I’m excited for you in that song.
BM: Thank you. Well, the other thing to remember about that song is it doesn’t have some famous person attached to it. It’s very easy. I had a number one active rock song because, not because, but Ozzy Osbourne sang it, so that kinda helped. Now it becomes, that’s the Ozzy Osbourne song that Billy Morrison had something to do with. So I think “Take Me As I Am” is a chance to go, well, actually, it’s Billy Morrison that has written and produced and recorded all of these, so here you go.
mxdwn: That’s awesome. You deserve it.
BM: Thank you.
mxdwn: “Leave No Trace” has Guns N’ Roses member, Duff McKagan, singing lead vocal.
BM: So Duff has two main vibes. One is like 1970s punk rock CBGB, Iggy Pop, New York Dolls, and that’s very much Guns N’ Roses. And I would never ask a member of Guns N’ Roses to write a song with me that sounds like Guns N’ Roses. It’s like writing a Stones song with Jagger. Pointless. However, I wanted Duff on the record. I’m very close with Duff. He’s been a longtime friend for decades. So, I went with the Americana thing. I love a good bit of twangy guitar and that Stones-y drug-fueled country vibe, and so I wrote the music and sent it to Duff and he’s like, yeah. We changed some stuff. We worked together. He came to my studio, and then he recorded his vocals up in his Seattle studio, but it was a proper collaboration, that track. He changed some chords and we worked on it together. The end result is definitely a standout track because it doesn’t sit anywhere particular in the rest of the album.
mxdwn: It started playing and I was like, wait a second, but I loved it because it was amazing and it’s a great little surprise in there. I mean, it obviously done very well. Yeah, I really liked it.
BM: Thank you. The thing is, I think it wins its place on Hollow, the album, just because it’s Duff McKagan. Like Duff McKagan is a man that surpasses genres and is heavy, Guns N’ Roses, man. We could have done anything, me and Duff, and it would still have made the record because of who he is.
mxdwn: For sure. I can definitely see that. You kind of answered my question, just telling me about the creative process behind that song. Amazing. “Butterfly Effect,” here’s a piano, an orchestra-backed, raw version of your voice. Where does that song come from? –
BM: That song came from deep inside. How do I phrase this? Writing and recording a record is a process, and it takes a long time, and this one took about a year, so what is happening during that year, as well as making music, is life. Life, love, relationships, all of that. I was very inspired by Bowie. I’ve loved Bowie since I was a kid. I wanted to write something that struck a chord. It always felt to me that Bowie tapped into a part of the emotional psyche that was slightly different to your standard rock song, even the straight-up rockers like “Suffragette City” and “The Jean Genie,” if you read the lyrics, there’s something special. I wanted to do that. I wanted to sing and do a song that showed I could do more than punk angry boy.I wanted to write some lyrics that made people think and struck some chords. I think that the choices I make in life have a ripple effect. If I choose to be dishonest here, then this person, this person, and this person are all gonna get affected by that. If I choose to say no to this thing, then that’s not gonna happen, and that person will get affected. Or if I’m rude to someone, this is a good one, it’s been pointed out to me. Everyone can be rude, and sometimes if I’m focused on getting something done, I say something that’s inappropriate. Well, now I’ve affected that person, and maybe the person that heard it standing next to that person, and now I really have to worry that my approach to that situation hurt three people. It’s a butterfly effect.
mxdwn: It is. It was actually hard for me to decide to ask you about the title, the literal name “Butterfly Effect,” because when I saw that, I was like, oh, that’s gonna be an emotional song. I don’t know why. The saying, butterfly effect, I’ve always been drawn to it. I don’t know why, so I’m glad you touched on that, too, about just the name. And I’m the same way, when I’m, trying to finish something and I’m super focused and someone, you know, whatever, bothering me, I’m the same way. I’m kind of, like, rude towards the person, but they are affected by it.
BM: Well, I’m not gonna go into the details, but there were distinct situations where I could have said what I needed to say in a different way and not hurt that person’s feelings, and then not had 10 other people who witnessed it think, that was inappropriate, and then maybe they go home and, the ripple effect, of what we do and how we carry ourselves is huge. That is not something that is immediately, prevalent in my vision. Maybe sometimes I need to be shown that or told that.
mxdwn: I can definitely be the same way. I get it. I mean, it’s huge just to acknowledge these types of things.
BM: Thank you.
mxdwn: That the first step, I think.
BM: My whole point in this record is I’m trying to acknowledge my shortcomings.
mxdwn: Well, you do it beautifully. And like I said, all you can do is what you are capable and comfortable with in that moment. And whatever that first step, whatever it looks like, it is what it is, and it’s always good enough.
BM: That’s it.
mxdwn: A lot more than some people can say.
BM: That is very true. That is the thought that keeps me waking up for the next day and the next day, because at least I’m trying.
mxdwn: Yes. I mean, that’s huge.
BM: In this life, in this day and age, with everything that’s going on and all that’s on the TV and the craziness, at least if you are trying, that is more than some.
mxdwn: Yeah, really. It is. You and Ozzy Osborne had a legendary friendship beyond the chart success of collaborations. What was it about your personal dynamic outside of music that kept you two so close for so long?
BM: I think it was the fact that it the friendship wasn’t born out of music. If we’d have met at a gig and knew each other’s music, I don’t think it would’ve lasted as long. I’ve said this before as well. Ozzy was one of the few people that really, honestly, never judged me. We were both extremely fallible people, fallible human beings. We had shortcomings, and he never once made me feel stupid for any of those.
mxdwn: Aw.
BM: And I never once made him feel stupid, and the whole world were often trying to make him.
mxdwn: Oh, yeah.
BM: And, on a different public level, I felt the same way. He never, ever made me feel stupid. He always encouraged and embraced, and had belief in me. And I did with him. And so I think that is the basis of a, of a multi-decade friendship. Not, you’re the singer of Black Sabbath,” you know? That actually was nothing to do with it.
mxdwn: For sure.
BM: When I met Ozzy, I knew “Paranoid,” and I knew Sabbath Bloody Sabbath, and I knew “Changes.” I was a fan, great songs. I didn’t know “Sweet Leaf” or “Children of the Grave.” I didn’t know Sabbath like that. I got to know and love it because I went around the world with the guy, but, you know, a friendship based on, nonjudgment is very important.
mxdwn: It is. I mean, I feel like that’s a true mark of real friendship, you know? You have to be there for them, thick and thin. It doesn’t matter. You cannot be judgmental.
BM: I will tell you, I was there for him, and he was there for me. Many examples — oh, my God, he showed up for me. Both sides. Both sides.
mxdwn: I love that. I’m, honestly, almost tearing up a little bit. That’s so beautiful. That’s awesome. I love that. I’m glad that you had each other, had that support system because I’m sure it’s hard in the public eye going through the kind of stuff that you guys went through.
BM: He went through it a lot more than me.
mxdwn: Yeah, but still, you’re still affected by it.
BM: I watched, I watched him deal with more than most human beings would ever be able to deal with, and still walk through it.
mxdwn: I know.
BM: The guy was strong as an ox.
mxdwn: Yeah. I mean, it’s truly, it’s incredible. I mean, that is strength right there.
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