mxdwn sat down with Ché Aimee Dorval to discuss her recently released album, The Crowned. Dorval was not sitting, however, instead taking us on a lovely walk through her side of the Zoom meeting. Dorval talked about her experiences collaborating with musician Devin Townsend, and the famed Metallica (and many, many more) producer Bob Rock. She talked about how she unapologetically blossomed on this album, no longer sitting by passively as women are often expected to, especially in songs such as “Blood Red Son,” written after the overturning of Roe v Wade.
mxdwn: My name is Katie Gray, and I’m currently here with Ché Aimee Dorval. I hope you’re off to a nice walk to start our conversation,
Ché Aimee Dorval: I am!
mxdwn: The first question I have for you is, in your interview with The Georgia Strait, you mentioned how you’re attracted to emotions and darkness, specifically in reference to the song “Cowboys,” by Portishead. Can you describe that darkness to me, and what about it attracts you?
CAD: I live in Vancouver. Here it’s rainy and gray and miserable for like eight months of the year, and it’s impossible for that not to seep into your very soul. So when I hear music that sort of reflects that, I guess I just feel less alone. I was like, you understand me! So I’m just always drawn to that kind of vibe. It seems like a nice accompaniment to my outside world. Happy stuff is- I’m not that energetic. So maybe it’s a little bit of that too.
mxdwn: The rain in the clouds will do that to you, that is for sure.
CAD: Yeah! Yeah, and it’s kind of magical. It’s magical, the melancholy of it all. It just seems mysterious in a way, which I’ve always been drawn to magic. Like the magic realm. So I just like spooky sad songs.
mxdwn: I also like myself some good spooky stuff. I don’t know how much I believe in it, but sometimes I really want to, you know?
CAD: Exactly! Me too. I don’t believe in anything. What’s there to believe in? We don’t know what’s going on. So if it’s fun, why not?
mxdwn: Yeah, and by the time we find out, we can’t exactly tell anyone about it.
CAD: Exactly. Unless you’re a ghost. I have seen a ghost, so I kind of believe in that. But I could be crazy, so who knows.
mxdwn: I’ve definitely had a couple of moments where I’m like, I’m gonna explain that with a ghost, because I like that more than the other alternatives. And it’s more fun.
CAD: Exactly.
mxdwn: The same interview, described Between the Walls and the Window as you reaching assuredness in yourself and your music, while describing the new album as unapologetic. Do you agree with that sentiment?
CAD: Yeah. Actually yeah, because if I think back, all of my other albums, I’ve been very apologetic, to a fault. And I haven’t been this time. I feel pretty strong and confident and proud of what I’ve done, which is a new feeling. I think maybe it comes with just growing up as well, whenever that happens. And for me it was very late.
mxdwn: I’m pretty sure I’m still not there yet, that’s for sure.
CAD: Yeah, it’s not great up here. Stay down there, stay at the childhood level.
mxdwn: That’s the goal really.
CAD: Yeah.
mxdwn: So where does, Casualties of Cool lay in that area for you?
CAD: In the unapologetic area? I think with that, you’re sort of detached from it in a way because it’s a collaboration. So you’re less hard on yourself, therefore you’re less apologetic, or just unapologetic. I feel like it’s easier to be more in tune with just the process and the music, and you can take yourself out of it a bit when you have someone else to bounce the whole experience off. Because, when you’re just sitting there alone with your thoughts, it can be pretty overwhelming. As humans you have insecurities and all those things, they tend to come up when you’re alone more so.
mxdwn: Yeah, that makes sense. You can’t overwhelm yourself if there’s someone right next to you also excited and telling you how amazing it all is.
CAD: Yeah! I’m really like, I’ve not thought about these things. And Devin’s kind of the same. Well, we’re quite different, but, when it comes to collaborating, we’re both just like- you do you, I’ll do me, we’ll throw it at a wall, that’s what it is, that’s nice, moving on. It’s not as stressful.
mxdwn: Speaking of Devin Townsend, do you guys have any plans to continue your duo? Do you have anything else planned together?
CAD: We do! Yeah. This has been a very busy year with the record that I just released. But I’ve been trying to fit in time to writing Casualties with Devin. So we’re at the beginning stages of that right now. And it would be nice if this one didn’t take a hundred years, like the last one. So yeah, there’s a plan for that, basically I just need to get my shit together. I think that’s the key. But yeah, it’s coming.
mxdwn: What do you think your biggest differences are emotionally and otherwise- which we just touched on a little- the differences when you’re working by yourself versus as that duo?
CAD: I think those were the differences basically. Being able to step outside of yourself while working with people, and trusting other people’s processes. Which is really, it’s really nice. You learn a lot about yourself, so there’s that. And I guess when I’m writing on my own, there’s a lot of sort of indecision and questioning and, time to overdo things again and again, because you don’t have that sort of objective person on the other side telling you, this is great! This is the spot. You’re in the pocket. So I feel like it takes more time like writing on my own. But maybe that’s good. Maybe I reach sort of a more personal level there. I think those are the big differences.
mxdwn: That’s really cool. I know that a lot of artists consider their music a lot like a diary. And so is it challenging kind of sharing that emotional space with someone, letting them into what is kind of like your private, close, personal thoughts and emotions?
CAD: For me, no. And that’s probably not great. I’m a bit of an oversharer, so having someone to listen to my bullshit is kind of nice. And actually, I find that, I don’t know if you do this, but I usually just say whatever comes to mind, with songwriting, but also just talking about your deeper most, innermost, whatevers. I just say things truly like thinking, this isn’t real. This is probably just you speaking. Then later reflecting like, oh no, this is exactly what’s going on. So yeah, having someone to speak your diary to in song? I think it’s actually quite healthy. I have no idea if I answered that question.
mxdwn: Definitely! I I love the answer. Because, I can be kind of similar where I definitely am capable of word vomiting at people. But it’s like, however someone is with me, I kind of feed back into that. Like I’m comfortable with whatever, so I’ll kind of meet you wherever you are.
CAD: A hundred percent. And that can get you into trouble. But yes, I do that too.
mxdwn: I think it’s nice to be able to just be comfortable being yourself too though.
CAD: Yeah, because we’re all humans, right? And we’re on this experience together just being ridiculous and making mistakes. Why not share all those bits with everyone? I mean actually there’s arguments for why not, but still, why not sometimes.
mxdwn: I think a lot of people can agree that the last five to six years, there’s been a lot going on emotionally. Have you found that these last few years have given you more to write about than ever?
CAD: Yeah. I think they have. It’s happier stuff, which I’m not used to. So, I haven’t quite figured out how to do that. But I mean, that’s a good problem to have. Life is better, yay! And then the world stuff, that’s just very stressful and I don’t think I’m quite ready to go there at all, you know? Especially with the last few years of living it, who wants to rework that in any way? I’ve started painting though, I find it easier to paint that stuff, if that makes sense.
mxdwn: Yes, definitely. For me, that comes out in a very abstract, like just take all of the colors that are inside you and spit them out, way.
CAD: Exactly! Exactly. Totally. And then someone else can figure it out, whatever that means to them. Yeah, it doesn’t have to be so literal.
mxdwn: The first half of your album, you worked alongside Metallica’s producer Bob Rock. The latter half was more self-produced. And in earlier social media posts, you even referred to the album by name of Ché Rock. What was it like working with him?
CAD: Great, he’s wonderful. He’s a wonderful human. I think that’s why the songs turned out the way that they did. He’s really supportive and he champions you, which is really nice. And we also wrote and produced the songs sort of the way I did with Dev. So there was a level of physical separation. Because he lives in Hawaii and I live here. And he would come up and we’d record here, but in the actual writing room, quote unquote, it was all my own. So it was really nice. He was there and supportive when we needed it, but he kind of allowed me to just be me. He didn’t try to mold anything and that’s something that I always sort of rail against. Which is why I haven’t really co-written with anybody aside from those two. And he is just also like a solid dude, and I only wanna work with just genuinely good people.
mxdwn: That’s a good way to go about it.
CAD: Yeah, why fill your space with assholes? Like why? You don’t have to!
mxdwn: So he didn’t really overproduce you.
CAD: No, no. It was a true collaboration, which was really interesting because we met as equals, and obviously he has had a lot more success than I have had. So that was surprising, but really, really nice. Bob’s a good guy, I like Bob.
mxdwn: So do you think you can definitely see you guys working on more projects together in the future?
CAD: Oh yeah, definitely. There’s actually a song that I should be working on right now, that I am not. I think we’ll just pass things back and forth forever, which sounds nice. And then maybe I’ll release it. You never know.
mxdwn: I sometimes wonder about the total catalog of stuff that artists have come up with that no one’s ever gonna hear, because they just kind of went, oh I’ll get back to that later, or, eh I’m not feeling it.
CAD: Oh my God, I have hard drives of like, hundreds of songs. And I bet you some of them are okay, but I don’t know because I name everything like, 56j34, so who knows what that is? And who has the time?
mxdwn: You just tell yourself, I’ll go through those at some point! Yeah no I’ll go through those at some point.
CAD: Yeah, you never do.
mxdwn: Nope.
CAD: No, it’s a treasure trove later at the end for the line of your family. They can look through it!
mxdwn: How would you say writing this album has helped you grow as an artist?
CAD: I think I’m just more confident in my abilities. In my abilities as a songwriter, and now as a producer. I trust myself and I trust my decisions and I learned a lot from, well the whole process, but I learned a lot from Bob when it comes to, well everything. I think just the confidence in whatever I do next, to just truly believe in it. I guess it goes back to the whole unapologetic thing. I feel I spent my whole life like saying I’m sorry, you know? Because I’m Canadian and then also, I’m a woman, and that just seems to be the thing that you constantly spout and I’m kind of over it in every way. With my personal life, and with music. This album kind of helped me do that, I think.
mxdwn: Sweet. Yeah, it’s- (groans).
CAD: Right?
mxdwn: I feel like that noise expressed all it needed to.
CAD: Yeah! I’m not sorry, and I’m also not gonna move over! Walk around me, to put it in a more physical realm. Anyways, I’m babbling at this point.
mxdwn: Oh God, but I really hope that other women start to see more women being unapologetic like that, and being able to take that away with them too. I think it’s an awesome example to set.
CAD: I think so, too.
mxdwn: Getting into the songs themselves, I was wondering if you could explain to me what exactly a loveless love is?
CAD: Ah, loveless love. I think it’s the kind where people use the word a lot. And then, it doesn’t mean anything. The actions don’t really meet up with it. So it’s just kind of a charade of an idea of love. It’s just a very loveless love. Yeah, I think it’s just that.
mxdwn: All right, that makes sense. Actions speak louder than words.
CAD: Yeah. I guess, I don’t know. There’s some songs that you write and you’re like, what am I talking about? But you feel it so deeply, and I think that’s one of them, if that makes any sense.
mxdwn: Yeah. It goes back to talking about how it’s really a diary, and when you’re writing things in a journal entry or what have you, you know what you mean. And so you don’t really have to explain it. Because it’s just what it is to you. So I get how thinking on that would be like, okay, how do I project that into words that actually make sense outside of my own brain?
CAD: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Although I feel like I’ve tried to explain this to people, because the song is a part of my life, and songs are diaries, and so this happened at some point. And there has to be a level of being able to explain where you’re coming from, and I have not mastered that with this. So a work in progress a little bit.
mxdwn: “Blood Red Son,” was written after Roe v. Wade was overturned. A line that really stood out to me, was “roulette by negligence and itch.” Can you tell me about that line there?
CAD: Yeah, that’s an easy one. I don’t know, maybe we all play this game, but a sort of passionate rash decision, made by all parties and it is. It is a game of roulette and it is negligent, negligence and you’re scratching an itch. It’s very literal, that line. That’s just the fact of the matter, right? It doesn’t even go into the aftermath of it all. It’s just that moment and it sets up so much in your life. So yeah, rule by negligence and itch, I’ve found myself in that situation. I’m not sure about you.
mxdwn: I would be lying if I said no. You’re up in Canada, so when stuff like that happens over here in the U.S., how does it affect you? I feel like I could have worded that better.
CAD: No, that wording’s great, it’s exactly the point. It’s awful because, yes, you’re in America and I’m in Canada, but we’re all women, we’re all people. Our cultures are also so similar. So it really freaks me out. I think, could that happen here? And, of course it could, it could happen anywhere, and so it’s just a healthy dose of fear. Because in Canada, sometimes we feel kind of like your little brother/little sister, in that we occasionally copy you, but not always the good things. So I felt a bunch of fear. I also felt so horrified and scared for everyone going through that. And there’s nothing that I can do, which is hard.
mxdwn: Yeah, I’ve been feeling really similar there.
CAD: At least we’re very, and I see that like you guys are as well, at least we’re very loud about it all. I guess that’s all you can do right there.
mxdwn: I’m hoping that starts working sooner than later, being loud.
CAD: Yeah, me too. That would be really nice. I don’t know. I mean, does the hope feel like it could turn into something real? Do you see the progress?
mxdwn: It’s weird because it’s like, I get what you mean by, while you might be up in Canada, it’s still scary. Washington State is a lot more protective of those kinds of laws and other things like them. So while I might be in the United States where this has happened, I personally still feel safe. It still sucks to watch. So living in this state, I guess gives me hope. I don’t know, maybe we’ll spread ourselves out, or maybe we’ll just chop ourselves off from the country.
CAD: Oh my God, you guys have such a big country. It’s crazy that it isn’t chopped already. There’s such definitive sort of boundaries of what people believe, and oh my God, you’re trying to make decisions for everyone at the same time. And, that’s gotta be difficult. Which it is quite obvious that it is.
mxdwn: I’m honestly surprised we haven’t had some sort of Roman Empire-like collapse yet.
CAD: I know! Or like, are we in the middle of it? I don’t know. I’m an alarmist about it. We’ll see.
mxdwn: In the song “Try,” you question if these are our darkest days. But despite that question, we still try our hardest nonetheless every time. I was wondering what your intended tone with that song was.
CAD: This is a great segue into this. It’s exactly that. It’s interesting. That was a rare spot of optimism and in my writing and in my life. Because usually I just sit in the dark and I’m like, ah! But I guess, when the world ended that time a couple years ago, it was so dark that you couldn’t really go anywhere but up. So I wrote that right in the middle of the pandemic and I guess we do just keep trying. Then maybe it gets better. It does usually, it’ll go down again, it’s a rollercoaster. But that’s all you can do, you know? That’s it.
mxdwn: That’s actually really similar to the sentiment I got from Sascha, from KMFDM, when I was talking to him. You guys think really similarly in that way.
CAD: Oh really? Yay! I’m not alone, that’s great.
mxdwn: Then the very next song, “Sleeping, Stoned,” seems like a total juxtaposition to that. Was there any intention in putting those two songs back to back?
CAD: No, but now that you say that, that is interesting. No, not at all. Which one’s first? Is it “Try?”
mxdwn: I believe so, yeah.
CAD: Oh, that’s sad. I was like, try again! Just Kidding. I don’t know, maybe it’s a subconscious thing. I have no idea how to answer that, I’m sorry.
mxdwn: Oh God, I actually, I love answers like that too. Because it is really fun to think about. Like is that totally subconscious? Was that a happy accident? I think that’s really interesting.
CAD: Me too. I’ll probably think about that later, shit.
mxdwn: My last question is, do you plan to tour over in North America?
CAD: Yes, I do. There’s some crazy things happening I’ve read, with visas and getting into America to play. It’s crazy, it’s already expensive and hard and it’s apparently going up by…I’m gonna say a number and just know that I’m talking out of my ass, but I’m pretty sure it was like 200%. But, regardless, yes, I am for sure.
I could see it being a solo or a duo show in the spring. Not this one that we’re currently living in, but the next one. That’s the plan.
mxdwn: Sweet. What, don’t totally want to just, take off on a plane tomorrow and get started, no plans attached?
CAD: No, that’s much too soon. I’m just going to wander around in a park. That’s all I want to do right now.
mxdwn: Honestly, it’s been pretty great going on a walk with you. Is there anything else that you want to add on that I didn’t cover?
CAD: I should probably. But nope, I think we had quite a lovely conversation. I’m good.
mxdwn: It’s been amazing talking to you and I’m glad I got some insight from you.
CAD: This was really nice, and thank you for joining me on my walk!
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