Bill Leeb has had a very long, successful career making different styles of electronic music and he is still going strong. He truly is a staple and inspiration whether you are a fan or not. Delerium’s newest album, Signs, is a must listen and Leeb puts it in his top three favorite albums he has been a part of. Many may not know that this album is dedicated to Dave Heckman, founder and president of Metropolis Records, who unexpectedly passed away. All of Leeb’s projects showcase his stunning ability to create completely different moods with his music; from trance to dark industrial electronic. Leeb is a genuinely thoughtful person with a fascinating career- one of Canada’s most treasured jewels.
mxdwn: What is it like to be working with Rhys Fulber regularly again after he stepped away for a few years? What’s the creative process like working with him on music?
Bill Leeb: Rhys and I need to sit down one day and write a book, because probably on and off we spent more time with each other than I have with any other person. During our first tour, I made him quit high school, I think he was 16 or 17 when we did our first Front Line tour. He doesn’t miss that education, he did okay. We then went down that road together and then he stepped away for a while and was producing for metal bands, and still does. He produced four of the Fear Factory albums, and he does a lot of remixes for bands like that, Machine Head and so forth. Then he kind of found his way back and got married and had a kid and then decided he wanted part of this again. I kept this going, so we’ve sort of come big full circle and now we’re pretty interactive again. We’re going to go on tour now with Ministry and Gary Numan in three weeks and go to Europe. We just did a Cyberaktif album now with Kevin from Skinny Puppy, so we’re kind of involved and I think that’s probably the best way to be, rather than being stuck in the same room always. It’s good, we just let each other do whatever needs to be done and then find our way back to each other. I always feel like I’m his big brother, you know? It’s kind of worked out for the best now, and here we are 35 years later and we’re still tinkering away trying to make noise.
mxdwn: That’s awesome. How was it to come back after seven years and make a new album for Delerium? Did the pandemic have any effect on your creative output and creation of music?
BL: Yeah, yeah. You know, Mythologie came out six and a half years ago and when it came out, none of us could have predicted what was going to be ahead- all the paranoia and the angst and the shutdown of the world. At that time Rhys moved back to Canada, like on the Sunshine Coast, and that made it a lot simpler for us. All of a sudden, we were shut down and he is back up here. So, for us to get together and start making noise in a room and being creative again- there was definitely two years there where nothing was going on so we wrote a Front Line album, and then we wrote a lot of bases for this Delerium album. Also our president at Metropolis, Dave Heckman, passed away about five months ago literally overnight without any warning. He had signed us for two albums of this, and we don’t know whether it was COVID related, but we’ve dedicated this album to him. A lot of people have come and gone as well in the world. A lot has happened and a lot has passed, and I think the fact that we’re still here is your best sign of still being rebellious and putting your best foot forward and fighting that fight and just keep it going. I mean who knows what else life has got to go for us. The fact that we’re all still here I think, it was just the testament at the time and so onward and forward we go.
mxdwn: Yes, exactly. I completely agree. That’s so sweet that you dedicated the album to him.
BL: It was bizarre because a week before he passed away he left me a message. He had gone to Spain for holiday, and he came back and he left a message asking how the album was coming along and if the artwork was done yet. Because we always drag our feet a little bit and so I still have that message and like a week later he literally just passed away overnight. It was kind of like, what? But I guess these things happen in life.
mxdwn: Yeah, they do. That’s pretty wild.
BL: His wife is running the label now, Gail, and she’s doing an amazing job. She’s dedicated herself, I mean the rest of the team for the label is there, but she’s dedicating herself now to keeping his legacy going. Metropolis Records is probably one of the main, if not the main, sort of industrial label in America now that Wax Trax doesn’t really put out a lot of music, and there’s not many labels like that. So, I think for this scene- the gothic scene, etc., it’s an important part still.
mxdwn: Definitely. You worked with a number of vocalists for Signs. How did those features come about? Did you know who you wanted on the album before you started it?
BL: A couple, like Mimi Page I wanted because on Mythologie that was our first time using her, and I think a lot of people with Spotify and all that stuff, really reacted and really liked what she did. Also, I thought too that she had the perfect Delerium persona, lyrics and sound for the times now for what people are listening to and so forth so she was definitely in. KANGA was a first for me. We did a video with her as well and she came from Rhys because she had produced her first album, so when I said how about approaching her, that was really a friendly term because he had worked with her before. We also had Emily Haines from Metric, the band has a big following in Canada. We used PHILDEL on the last album as well. We kind of mixed and matched, but brought in a few new people and some from the other one and left the ones from way back in the day way off the table. There’s some instrumentals, so I think we kind of just wove our way through. I do find now collaborations aren’t as easy to come by. I think because of the music industry and it’s harder to sell music, that most iconic singers really keep their own identity now rather than just start collaborating with people. Where in the old days, it was a lot easier to do that kind of thing. We just sort of wove our way through everything, and I think we ended up in a really happy place with what we did.
mxdwn: When you make music for Front Line Assembly versus Delerium, do you have two different head spaces that you work from in order to keep the music separate, or do you make the music and then decide which one you want to release it under?
BL: Yeah, we keep them really separate. I think for Front Line, I’ll spend two months watching horror movies {laughs}. I’ll watch Evil Dead four times, and then I’m like, okay, I’m there. It’s completely different. It’s so easy though, I’ll just watch the news for a few weeks and I’ll get incredibly pissed off at all the ironies and all the political garbage out there and just all the idiosyncrasies in the world. There’s usually enough to draw from to get that ball rolling. I find, and it’s good, most artists have two sides of their brain and I think it’s really great to get your aggression out, like this tour we’re going to do with Gary Numan and Ministry because when I come back, I feel like I’ve sort of let a lot of the air out of the anger balloon, and I feel calm for a while. Then I find Delerium music and I agree It’s more, not sounding cheesy, it’s more spiritual or holistic healing music. It’s something you can put on any time and listen to and it kind of enhances your environment. I think for Front Line, it’s something you put on before you go to a club and you just want to get up and go. The other great thing I find too is a lot of Delerium fans have never heard of Front Line. When we go on the Delerium fan page, people that like trance music and Tiësto and all that stuff, they’re worlds apart from Front Line, Skinny Puppy, Nine Inch Nails, they’re in a different zone. I think that’s kind of really good to have a bigger spectrum of the world and a bigger audience as well. Different people come up and say things to me and they have no idea that I’m part of this other thing and that just makes it more fun and exciting. It’s kind of fun to live in both worlds.
mxdwn: Totally. Front Line has great music to get pumped up for doing something. They’re two very different sounds and that’s interesting that people don’t know you do those two different things.
BL: Yeah I mean I had one interview and she was like wow you know, I’m listening to Karma and me and my boyfriend were making out last night to your music and I’m like, well, that’s cool.
mxdwn: That’s so funny. I love it.
BL: I made a joke once, I said, Delerium’s music I wanted to make for runway models when they walked on the catwalk. Which is a joke, right? But yeah, I think there’s music for all occasions. I think that’s one of the reasons too, we’re still doing that because we weren’t just one band that started off in the garage and then the manager quit, and the drummer left and the record tanked and your careers over. I think me and Rhys always decided from day one that we don’t ever want to get day jobs. We liked so many different types of music that we just did whatever we wanted to, and it kind of worked out for the best at the end.
mxdwn: It did. “Glimmers” is originally on Rarities & B-Sides and it features Emily Haines from Metric. Why did you decide to put a remixed version on Signs, and how did this song originate?
BL: Well, initially we were going to have it on Chimera, and Emily did two songs for us, then we never ended up using that one. I guess Network, they always like to work things and repackage, and so they decided to do that Rarities thing and threw it on there. I always felt like the music production, some of it came from two other people we were working with, I just always felt like there was a better version of it that could be there. I thought me and Rhys should do our own sort of version of it because I really like her vocals and I think she’s a great singer and lyricist, and I thought not everybody probably heard Rarities, so we worked on it for a bunch of days, and then I thought this kind of fits. I think a lot of the vocals on this album are really highlighted. Our music production isn’t as busy as it used to be and we get more to the point and stay more with the melodies, and I thought her vocals just stood out on its own and just needed a different type of sound behind it. We wanted to do it again, and we’ve done remixes and stuff before and because it wasn’t on a major release, it would be a nice edition. That’s how we got there.
mxdwn: “Coast to Coast” was released as a single before the album. What was the reasoning behind that?
BL: Well, I think that the KANGA song and “Coast to Coast,” first we were going release it in February, and then something delayed something, so one got ahead of the other. Then by that time when we rescheduled it from March 10, I think they already had “Coast to Coast” and “In The Deep” should have been first but the video took longer. It was just that. I think sometimes it’s just hard to schedule things and then when you’re waiting for a delivery of something and if it takes longer it just becomes scheduling, I think. We’re also, as of today, I think I saw on the board that they’re going to do a video for “Coast to Coast” in London. From what I saw, it’s going to look amazing, so that’s in the works now. The album’s only been out since March 10, so I think there’s a lot that’s going to happen with it and a lot to work. These days with social media and everything, you have to put a lot of effort into it and stuff. There’s so many releases, so this journey is just starting. In a year from now we can look back and see how, what and where we went, how far we got with it.
mxdwn: Do you think you’ll start making albums more frequently for Delerium in the future like you did from the late 80s to 2000 or take longer breaks between releases like you have from 2000 till now?
BL: Well, that’s a million-dollar question. It’s hard to say, right? With the way everything is in the world now and so forth, you just never know as far as how inspired we feel, what else gets in our way of everyday life. I kind of lost track, like I can’t believe that much time has gone by since the last album. Speaking of that, the Cyberaktif album with Kevin from Puppy, we did the first one 33 years ago, and now the new one is being mixed as we talk and I was joking saying, well, you know, if we’re doing it at this rate, we won’t make the next one {laughs}. We’re definitely not going to be here 30 years from now, and it’s crazy too, right? Because Skinny Puppy are going to tour with Lead Into Gold the same month as we are going to be with Gary Numan and Ministry and we’re not playing many of the same places, but the fact that they’re touring, we’re touring and our new Cyberaktif thing is almost finished being mixed, and it’s been 33 years again, like… I guess as you get older, time references and frame points become more nostalgic because of the amount of time. I guess with Delerium too, six years from now, I think the way technology changes and with AI coming into play so heavily, I think the world will be so different again in six years from now if it’s still here. Music as well, everything changes so fast now. Who knows what people will like in six years from now. When someone asks me how soon for your next album, it’s hard because you don’t know how we’ll change and how music will change and what will be required for anybody who wants to listen to music, and will Tik Tok be around in six years or will it be banned by all governments. I think you just have to live for today and enjoy the moment. I think the way things are going now, it’s hard to think that far ahead. So much has happened and I’m worried about AI because we were fooling around with it and took Rhys’ voice and made a Starbucks commercial just with a sample of his voice and made it say things that he didn’t say, the program did. Are musician’s even going to be important anymore, or artists period. You can take an old master painting and just recreate it with AI and make it super interesting and great looking. If you’re a painter you’re going to be out work. I’m just wondering where this is all going to go, right? Maybe musicians will be obsolete for the most part. In the next 10 years everybody will just be on the computer and you’ll say like- ambient music and just put in a few of your old references and it’ll create something for you that’s new just for you. Then, why should you go out and buy anything.
mxdwn: Yeah. That’s a scary thought. I hope that doesn’t happen because I’ll be out of work as a music journalist as well.
BL: See what I mean? Or like in Japan they will be like, have you met my new girlfriend or boyfriend? And a robot will come out of the kitchen.
mxdwn: It’s completely conceivable {laughs}.
BL: I know. I don’t want to sound nostalgic, but if you think about 100 years ago from today of what we were thinking, what we were doing, what we were driving, what we were dealing with in technology. Just think if we evolve like that over the next hundred years, we wouldn’t even recognize the future. You know what I mean?
mxdwn: Exactly.
BL: So, just enjoy today and listen to your favorite CD because I think those days are numbered.
mxdwn: Do you have any plans for Delerium North American tour dates this year?
BL: The album only came up two weeks ago, and we’re going to do a few videos and a few remixes and just see how much interest there is and how well received it is- so far so good. Then just go from there. Like I said, we’re going to go on this Ministry tour and then I’m back for two days and then we’ll have to fly to Europe to do a bunch of the festivals there. Then in the fall we’re doing Cold Waves, we’re headlining Saturday night there and Jason’s booked us a few shows around that as well. So, it’s kind of a really busy year for all that. Having said all that, if everything kind of goes really well it would be nice to maybe think of doing some stuff next year because I don’t want to over tour. Maybe that’ll lend itself to a perfect situation for doing some shows then or something.
mxdwn: Yeah, definitely.
BL: This year’s kind of gone, and like everybody’s saying- oh, you guys should do some Cyberaktif shows because I think we’d get a lot of interest with all the Puppy fans and Front Line fans, so that’s going to come out later this year and I’m kind of curious to see about that. There’s lots of fun things going on, we just got to keep rolling right now with it all and see how it all turns out. So anyway, maybe next year because this year’s kind of booked up.
mxdwn: You definitely sound booked.
BL: We’ll see how the whole Delerium thing works out, but at least we managed to get something out there and we’ll just see if we have any fans left {laughs}.
mxdwn: I’m sure you will.
BL: Yeah. So far so good, right?
mxdwn: Yes, exactly. Signs seems to sonically grow to harder electronic hitting songs as the album progresses from song to song, was that on purpose?
BL: I think we sort of have some instrumentals on there and stuff as well, but yeah, we’ve come full circle with it. We weren’t really trying to write pop type songs, and I think it’s more of like Dead Can Dance meets Massive Attack with the basses, and we have this new drum machine and it sounds a lot heavier. It’s one of my favorite albums out of all of them. I think it’s in the top three for sure. I told Rhys that a few times now, I think from top to bottom, like all the songs, the sounds, the whole concept- it’s up in the top three for me for sure. I’m pretty fussy and we’ve had a lot of releases, so I think it definitely did it for me.
mxdwn: It’s a great album. Totally my type of electronic music. Back in the 90s you worked with Devin Townsend on some Front Line Assembly albums. Have you ever considered working with Devin again since Hard Wired has come out?
BL: Well, ironically, Devin lives like where Rhys lives on the Sunshine Coast, and they cross path sometimes. Devin’s an incredibly busy guy. We did like a Rammstein cover song for Cleopatra Records and they’re putting out a tribute album so I said, well, let’s get Devin, but he wasn’t in town so we got Dino from Fear Factory. But yeah, we’re all interconnected and he lives up there and they talk and stuff, so you never know. Maybe down the road we’ll need a guitarist for something and we’ll call up Devin if he’s around.
mxdwn: Front Line Assembly’s albums Millennium and Tactical Neural Implant, both seem to be stylistically important albums because Tactical Neural Implant implemented multi-layered sounds and Millennium was the start of adding metal guitars. How does it feel to look back on those albums now? Where did the decision to make those changes come from?
BL: Well, when we started we were just coming out of the Puppy camp and the whole industrial, per se, electronic thing was most upfront, but suddenly a few bands started sampling metal bands, KMFDM was one of the ones, they sampled Slayer and Wax Trax really started to come to, and Ministry changed their sound. It was evolution and it gave industrial music new life again. Metal and industrial, I mean obviously musically playing wise they’re a whole lot different, but I think the sound and the imagery, the anger, the vibe of the whole thing, they’re not far apart. I think they’re both edgy, and so it seems like just a natural thing. For us, it was perfect because we signed to Roadrunner Records, and all they had was metal bands, so all of a sudden Pantera was there and like all the bands that we want, that we liked. We had written three or four songs, you know, then we signed a deal with Roadrunner and we were like, wow, we’re actually on an official metal label now. Then, we started writing a few songs and I wasn’t really feeling it, so I just went to a local alternative record store, because I like vinyl and I collect music, and I found the single by Panera called “Walk” and I brought it home and I heard that {imitates opening instrumental of song} and I was like, yeah, this is what we got to do. So, I dropped the single off to Rhys at the studio and I said, dude, you have to listen to this and we were like, oh yeah, the energy, the riff and the whole thing. So, we sampled that and because we were on Roadrunner, it all worked out. If we were somewhere else, we never would’ve gotten permission and all that kind of stuff. We just went sample crazy, that whole album and then the ones we couldn’t clear like the Metallica one, Devin came in and he’s such a great player, he’s like, oh, that’s easy to do and he just played it. We were like, oh, cool, okay, fuck Metallica {laughs}.
mxdwn: Exactly. Don’t need them {laughs}.
BL: So, then it was our song, and we’re like, here we go. Necessity sometimes is the mother of invention, right? That’s how we went, and Devin played about two or three tracks on there. Next thing you know, it’s like, of course we pissed off a lot of people because when we released that album, all the people that liked Tactical and were still pseudo industrial electronic purists, were like, oh, you guys sold out, you picked up guitars, this sounds like metal, what the hell is wrong with you guys. But we like that because we said we wanted to piss people off. That was our concept. Let’s piss everybody off, and so we did. As time went on, like even now, we still play “Millennium” as a closer and it still brings down the house. Sometimes you just kind of have to believe in yourself and do what you like doing and do it how you want to hear it. If you start trying to be creative in the sense of like what do our fans want to hear, what do people want to hear, you’re just not going to make it. One person will love it and the next person will hate it, so at the end of the day I have to be able to listen and think yeah, I like it and it’s what I wanted to do and that goes a long way for me.
mxdwn: Yeah. That’s really, honestly inspirational.
BL: So yeah, that was a big thing. The crazy thing is that whole Roadrunner thing is what changed a lot of stuff because that’s when it opened the doors for Rhys to become a metal producer and Machine Head, they were on Roadrunner, and he did four records with them. That opened a huge door, it changed the world for him and for us and for everything. When I think back, it all started because of that little 45 I bought. As insignificant as it was, it ended up being a massive catalyst. You never what you’re going to find inspirational, what’s going make you tick.
mxdwn: Exactly.
BL: That’s the thing about Delerium, you never know. Like when Enigma came along and just blew up the world with monks, and it became the biggest thing since sliced bread and now it’s completely dead. In two years from now, who’s going to be the next Billie Eilish, or who’s going to come along and revolutionize music again, like punk rock did or whatever. Hopefully something will come along and get people reinterested. Right now I agree with Thom Yorke from Radiohead- when you turn on pop music now, it’s either Taylor Swift or Taylor Swift. I hope somebody comes up with something new that excites people.
mxdwn: I completely agree. I really hope so too.
BL: Not that there’s anything wrong with that. It’s just there’s always been new wave punk, this, that, hip hop also had a huge influence in the music world. I just find right now, nothing has really come along in a while. Hopefully one day something else will come along and rekindle, because music’s important, I think, for people.
mxdwn: Very important. I’d love to see something revolutionary come along. The song “Silence” had Sarah McLachlan on it, and it was a huge success. Do you have plans to collaborate with her again because of that?
BL: Well, one thing with Sarah is she’s done very few collaborations. I actually met her for the first time when she was 18 or 19 I think, in Vancouver. She came here from the East Coast and was a new artist, but nobody knew her, and was mixing her album. We were in the other room and we just talked and then we all ended up on Network Records. Delerium and Skinny Puppy were on Network, and so was Sarah, and we just stayed as casual friends, and I saw her at the label and stuff. Then when “Silence” was literally being mixed, we were in the studio, and I sent her some demos to see if she was interested in anything. As we were mixing it as an instrumental, the phone rang in the studio and it was Sarah. She said, hey, I think I have an idea for this particular song. I mean, she didn’t know we were mixing it at the time, and we were like, okay. We took a lunch break, and she came down with the manager and did two versions of it, and the rest is history. The song went like to number one in four or five countries in the world. Still even now, in that whole world, it gets played and I think it was the most remixed trance song of all time. Even still, there are new versions that came out this month. That one song alone has given me and Rhys like a life, it’s crazy. I mean I have all these gold records from four different countries where that song went number one. I mean we didn’t know what we were doing, I had no idea. Also, that’s when the whole trance world was just starting to become big and guys like Tiësto were just starting off. It ended up with Paul Oakenfold and all of them, and they started playing that song, and that became his biggest signature song. We just sat back, it was kind of a blur how fast it happened. It was crazy. I don’t think I’d ever want to approach Sarah again because that song became so big, and it’s so big. I think anything we would do with her now would get compared, and if it was something great and people would like, yeah it’s good, but it’s not “Silence.” I think it would be kind of pointless. I wouldn’t even attempt it because like I said, this last month two new versions have come out of that. One big DJ is doing his set with it. He just released his own version and he’s doing a thing in Austin next month. The song’s still going. It’s kind of like Kiss, Kiss never stopped. They just wear makeup even when they’re 80 years old and they look like they’re 20 years old.
mxdwn: Right? I know they do.
BL: I saw them on Howard Stern, and the guy was like, hey, well, you know what? I’m 70 years old, but you’d never know under this makeup and I still sound damn great.
mxdwn: That’s so true, that’s so funny.
BL: My friend bought tickets and he’s like, hey Bill, you want to go old school? I said, what do you mean? He says, let’s go see Kiss this year, they’re coming. I’m like, yeah, I’ll go. It’s funny. Anyways, it’s kind of like Kiss, they’ll just never go away and I’m okay with that. I’m just going to let it be, totally let it be.
mxdwn: Exactly. My uncle asked me if I had any interest in seeing Kiss and I said yes. So I went and exactly, you would never be able to tell how old they are with that makeup. Also, like the Red Hot Chili Peppers. I’ve seen them a couple times live and they do not act like they are a day over 20, they’re still out there shirtless, running around and going crazy {laughs}.
BL: Yeah. Flea, at least he’s not pantless anymore. It used to be both, now it’s just the shirt.
mxdwn: Yeah, yeah.
BL: Yeah, you know, a guy in his sixties stops to take his pants off {laughs}. I think they did okay though, right?
mxdwn: Yes, they definitely did. So, as a person who’s been in the electronic genre for a while now, how do you think it has changed?
BL: Mostly technology, I mean you could write a book about that. When we started with Front Line and when we started with Skinny Puppy, there were no computers. They had like little rhythm boxes, there wasn’t even MIDI. MIDI is when you can connect all the synthesizers to a computer, digitally, and it’s perfect. You can store everything. Before that it was just analog, which meant you could connect some things, but it was an analog signal and it was never time perfect. Sometimes it would work great, and other times it wouldn’t. When there were no computers, you literally had to come into the studio and play things manually, like go trigger off a drum machine and when you did it at home, by the time you went to the studio, it was different because the synths were always fussy. They weren’t nitty and you couldn’t save the sounds properly, so just that alone. Then when computers came in, it was good and bad because like a guy with a computer can do almost anything now. He doesn’t need a band, he can do everything himself. You can even auto tune your vocals, that’s trendy with hip hop and stuff, so that they’re pitch perfect. I think technology first and foremost is the thing that changed the whole electronic field to every aspect that you can think. Now with AI too, taking a voice sample and doing anything you want with it, it’s kind of like where do you stop? The technology part has changed it from just being completely archaic to being like every kid can be a bedroom warrior and that’s why you have so much music. A kid can buy himself a Mac and go home and have one keyboard and all the other synthesizers are now virtual synths, so you don’t need a room full of synthesizers. You don’t need big old wooden keyboards, you can just link them online. You can just virtually pull up a keyboard, put your programs in, get your next keyboard, and you can have your whole band just on the laptop, which is what people do. They literally write their music while they’re waiting for a plane in an airport. That’s coming a long way. Literally one guy on a laptop at an airport, like Avicii wrote his biggest songs waiting for layovers while when we did Skinny Puppy, in the old days, it was three or four guys in the room with a whole load of gear and tape machines and you had to record things because if you didn’t then you would lose them. Then you had to haul all that shit into a studio and reconfigure it, so I mean, it’s incredible. We went from a giant studio to a little laptop, right? Even your iPhone or your cell phone, same thing. You can do anything on a cell phone now. We went from analog to digital and MIDI and computers, it just changed the world. It put us a hundred years ahead.
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